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DoseOrdo
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PostSubject: Get your flowers out kids...   Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:27 am

From Karen Traviss Latest Blog
http://karentraviss.typepad.com/

3. No, I can't reconsider. It's sweet of you to keep asking, but I had to make my decision nearly a year ago. When I was finishing 501st in January this year, I was told about a significant continuity change coming up in the Clone Wars cartoon. (As was mentioned and shown in a couple of books that came out in the summer - this is not confidential information of any kind now.) I was told that the Mandalorians were being revamped as long-standing pacifists who'd given up fighting centuries ago and that Mandalore was now a post-apocalyptic wasteland devastated by war. I was told not to refer to (recent) Mandalorian history because of that, as it was obviously at odds with the old continuity in my novels. That's fairly common procedure for any franchise - but unfortunately it wasn't that simple in practice. The two Commando series - and quite a few older books and comics, come to that -were based entirely on that original history, and basic logic meant that the fundamental plot of the series could never have existed if this had been a pacifist society. Neither could any of the characters or their motives have existed, because they were wholly based on a global warrior culture living on a non-nuked Mandalore. I had some discussion in January with the editor about possible ways around the problem, but after that, I heard nothing to indicate that the position would change, so the plan went ahead to wind up my existing storyline in the two books that were already in the pipeline. It was too late for me to rewrite 501st even if the changes hadn't made that pretty well impossible.

My point of view
Dose will simply call himself and his people True Mandalorians of the old ways and look down upon any Pacifist Mandalorian. Something similar to the Deathwatch Mandalorian split.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:58 am

Screw that. I just don't consider the new stuff canon at all. I know they make changes all the time and the people who have grown accustomed to one thing always get the shaft when the continuity folks try to retcon, but I'm still going to play my Mandalorian how I've always played her. I'm not letting this decision (which is obviously for the money they are raking in with having it fit into the Clone Wars series) force me to change several years' worth of story.

In my mind, the real Star Wars canon and the Clone Wars cartoon series are separate entities. I'm sure I'm going to hear about how I'm a stubborn idiot now for not bending to the "great will of Lucas" (or rather his subcommittees, etc.) or at least for not accepting the facts, but I don't care. This is one of the most ridiculous changes to something solid that I've seen in a long time.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:07 am

so i was searching the web for any hope that "The Essential Atlas" did not clearly state Duchess Satine was head of the Mandalorians and found something interesting...

Now I dont take Wiki as fact, though most is based off fact so I wonder if "The Essential Atlas" provides this info... might have to pick it up.

anyways Wiki on New Mandalorians:
New Mandalorians was the name given to a reformist political organization led by pacifist Duchess Satine during the Clone Wars.

edit HistoryThe New Mandalorians were formed about 730 years before the Battle of Yavin, following a war between the Galactic Republic and the Mandalorians, that devastated Mandalore. The New Mandalorians did away with the old warrior codes that the Mandalorians had followed, instead claiming that the only way the Mandalorians could survive was through being peaceful, neutral and tolerant. Under the influence of the New Mandalorians, the traditional Mandalorian armor became a rare sight on Kalevala
(apparently Mando'yaims new name,) with only a few people choosing the old ways.

Heres where it gets intresting
In 60 BBY, Jaster Mereel formed the True Mandalorians, a Mandalorian organization that soon became embroiled in a war against another Mandalorian faction, the Death Watch. The New Mandalorians rejected both groups, but after the True Mandalorians were eliminated during the Battle of Galidraan in 44 BBY, the Death Watch attempted to kill Duchess Satine, the leader of the New Mandalorians. However, Satine was able to survive the attacks.

During the Clone Wars, Satine advocated that the Mandalorians remain neutral. However, the New Mandalorians eventually gave their support to the former Clone trooper Alpha-Ø2.


So the Mandalorians we see in CW2 are actually Death Watch, possibly the episode is them trying to kill Satine and the Republic protect her...

Also if true then Alpha02 is once again Mandalore after the clone wars... not Shya
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:08 pm

(takes a deep breath) NOOOOOO!!! WHY DO YOU SEEK MY TEARS? LUCASFILM? ANSWER MEEEEE!!!!!!

ok, I'm calm. I can accept this, really I can (sniffle.) Always look on the bright side of things... for example there's the Death Watch which should be cool... and I love the entire post-appocalyptic genre so that might turn out ok... and if all else fails this site provides some pretty awesome fanfiction.
Yes, I can live through this. (wanders off singing "I will survive")
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:16 pm

I forsee George Lucas being mobbed at the next convention he appears at by a giant wave of armor clad bodies wearing T-shaped visors.... at least until he calls it off...
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:20 pm

Lucas and his whole company are so lucky that they have loyal fans. You'd think we all would have quit after the prequel series, but here we are. We get spoonfed a pretty decent history filled with Mandos and candy, and they friggen take it away. It's kind of hard being a fan of something when you just get ass-raped all of the time.

I guess in the end all this really messes up is the Clone Wars era. From my understanding, the Legacy era Mandos seem to follow what we're used to under Alpha. It's unfortunate that KT's story is getting slaughtered so they could put a Moulin Rouge reference in TCW. But whatever. I'm not part of the LucasArts company making big bucks to fuck around with canon.

I do have to admit a post-apocalyptic Mandalore is bad ass and I'm already thinking about rewriting my Mando characters into that.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:28 pm

Quote :
In my mind, the real Star Wars canon and the Clone Wars cartoon series are separate entities.

I'm totally agreeing with Mesh'la's statement on that. Yes, I consider the Clone Wars a fun past time, but the movies are canon. I'll even go so far as to consider some of the EU canon, but I won't accept all of it. For example, I won't acknowledge the Yuuzhan Vong storyline as canon...even though I read it.

At this point, I think we as fans can just pick and choose what we want to enjoy. I haven't taken every storyline out there for "fact" in a fictional universe anyway. Yeah, it sucks about totally revamping the Mandalorians. Not sure why anyone would want to take a culture that thrives in armor and weaponry and make them...pacificts??? Doesn't make any sense. It's like politics. Politicians only do what they want anyway so why bother? Razz

What's the true canon of Star Wars in my opinion? John Williams!!

http://karentraviss.typepad.com/
Quote :
But today I'm reacting, because somebody blurted out something on a forum, and the rumours started. Yes, for once a rumour is actually true; I've withdrawn from the sequel to Imperial Commando 501st, which was going to be my final Star Wars novel. I had issues over contractual matters and working practices that still showed no signs of being resolvable after a couple of years, so I told the publisher that I would not be doing the book.

Okay, call me selfish, but see that line above in Purple? Nooooooooo!!!!!!! How is the storyline going to end now??? No
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Catika
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:15 pm

As upset as I am, good for her. I wouldn't want to make any more money for Lucas anyway.

I haven't read ImpCom yet so don't spoil anything, but it sounds to me like there's no real ending to it. That's disappointing, but still, I'm glad she's sticking it to the man.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:38 am

Catika wrote:
As upset as I am, good for her. I wouldn't want to make any more money for Lucas anyway.

I haven't read ImpCom yet so don't spoil anything, but it sounds to me like there's no real ending to it. That's disappointing, but still, I'm glad she's sticking it to the man.

Oh, I'm not bashing Ms. Traviss, not in any way. She's got her reasons and her rights to drop from Lucas, and I won't hold that against her in any respect. It's just as always...timing. The timing sucks. It might not have been such a blow to me if she had been able to pull the plug after Order 66. Even though it was left open-ended, I had a feeling of closure with it. 501st just opened too many doors in the plot, and I guess we have to treat it like Sev's fate...it can go in any direction the audience imagines it can.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:24 pm

I love Fallout so the wastland Mandalore sounds awesome. Only problem is that my character is founded on SWG, so in the GCW time frame. This is like 750 years later so I imagine with the tech and time its pretty close to reformed by now.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:25 pm

Ms.MaraJade wrote:
Okay, call me selfish, but see that line above in Purple? Nooooooooo!!!!!!! How is the storyline going to end now??? No

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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:43 pm

You know, I think I know what this about, they're trying to turn the Mandalorians into Med Max versions of Jedi.

Also, Mandalore got hit by the Genesis Device after season 2 of Clone Wars. Think about it, it makes sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:50 pm

Forgive my ignorance, but...Med Max? scratch

(Also, I am surprised that Dae'buir has posted nothing in this thread, either way. ;P I've been waiting with bated breath for a rant one way or t'other.)
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Mesh'la Runi
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:54 am

Melyc'inya wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but...Med Max? scratch

I'm pretty sure he meant "Mad Max."
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:49 am

I ignore that, personally. I see the New Mandalorians as a kind of a heretic faction similar to the Death Watch and the Neo-Crusaders when thiking in universe, but the nuked Mandalore I ignore completely. The reason for me to ignore it is because it adds nothing to the continuity besides complications, since the preceding continuity has been very consistent and made sense for everything. Mandalore as a forest world makes sense because they were nomads, they didn't act from Mandalore for the majority of the Mandalorian history so the Jedi and the Republic had no reason to attack it. A nuked Mandalore would simply make the Mandalorians non-nomadic and therefore a simple military, like all of the militaries in the clone wars series.... they're all homegrown. That they were pacifists makes them even more alike all the previous cultures in the series, with the Twi'leks and the Rodians both retconned extensively as well. I think this series offers much, much, much more inconsistencies than any other SW media before it, but I can't understand why they have to collide. Why can't they make stuff fit? Of all the planets and species in SW media, why can't they allow it to fit? That I won't understand. tongue

But yeah, it's all fiction so we as fans can cherry pick. I suggest we do, since there's nothing we can say to change it. It's all about money for companies, and we're not the majority... sadly.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:55 pm

So I picked up the "Star Wars: The Essential Atlas" to check out for myself.

There's pages about the Mandalorian Wars but its the same as we all know them.

Then on page 77 it shows a planet Mandalore.

Grid Location: O-7
Terrain: Jungles, Seas, Deserts
Diameter: 9,200 km
Length of Day: 19 Standard Hours
Lenth of Years: 366 standard Days
Population: 4 Million
Sentient Species: Humans
Species Mix: Humans (81%), other (19%)
Languages: Mando'a, Basic
Government: Clan Leader
Major Exports: Starships, Mercenaries
System/Star: Mandalore/Mandalore

Then theres a chart of Planets...



Planets------Type-------------Moons
Nog----------Searing Rock----0
Akaan-------Airless Rock-----2
Tracyn------Volcanic Rock----4
Kalevala----Toxic Desert-----0
Mandalore--Terrestrial--------2
Mandallia---Terrestrial -------1
Bonagal----Gas Giant --------34
Shukut------Gas Giant--------30
Werda-------Ice Ball----------0

For seven Millennia, Mandalore has been the prime base for the seminomadic Mandalorian warriors. Though Mandalorian influence has fallen precipitously since its peak in 3660 BBY, the planet is the centerpiece of the Mandalore sector and the surrounding territoy that makes up Mandalorian space.
In approximately 7000 BBY, the Taung leader Mandalore the First led his followers from Roon to the new world, which they renamed in his honor (Manda'yaim in their own tongue). They tamed the jungles and slaughtered the gargantuan mythosaurs, leaving their skeletons to bleach in the sun. By the time of the Great Sith War in 3996 BBY, the clans- under the leadership of Mandalore the Indomitable- Had largely abandoned the planet to conquer far-flung systems. Their crusade intesified over the following decades and soon the Republic reeled under the Mandalorian Wars, which broke out in 3965 BBY. Mandalorian space (with Mandalore's capital of Kedalbe as its governmental center) extended across a majority of the galactic northern quadrant before Mandalore the Ultimate's defeat at the hands of the Jedi Revan in 3960 BBY. Mandalore remained the center of a vastly shrunken kingdom, with many from its clans turning to banditry or mercenary work.
Subsequent Mandalorian history has seen bitter struggles between a dizzying number of factions: warriors trying to honor ancient codes; expansionist seeking to conquer neighboring systems; reformers hoping to join galactic society; and outlaws refusing to acknowledge any law beyond the Mandalorian gun. Mandalores' apex as a militant society arguably came in the centuries after the Ruusan Reformations, but the sector was devastated by Jedi-led Republic troops in the 730s, a disaster that led the so-called New Mandalorians to renounce violence in an effort to save their planet.
For centuries the New Mandalorians were ascendant, opposed only by splinter groups of nomads arguing with one another about who was the proper heir to the old ways. Yet these revanchist would eventually put an end to the New Mandalorians, and make Mandalorian armor once more an emblem of fear in the Outer Rim.
Mandalore's return to its warrior roots couldn't stop its fortunes from taking a downward turn during the Empire's reign, however. Under the rule of an Imperial overseer, the Suprema, Mandalore became a slave trading hub. In 3 ABY, Mandalorian Supercommando Fenn Shysa destroyed the Suprema's base inside the skeletal mythosaur called City of Bone.
During the Yuuzhan Vong War, Boba Fett attempted to protect the planet by appearing to work with the invaders as a collaborator. Fett and revived legion of supercommandos then had to protect Mandalore against a Vong counterattack when his true intentions became known. After the Vong's defeat, Fett reluctantly accepted the burden of leading the Mandalorians and tried to reclaim their ancient role as a galactic power.

Then on page 133 after more talk of the old Mandalorian wars in a section titled "The Mandalorians" I found:

After Ruusan, the Mandalorians remade themselves as a technologically adept, rigidly disciplined society. Mandalore's growing militancy alarmed the Republic and the Jedi, leading to a short, sharp war in the 730s that devastated the planet and forced another social transformation. The so-called New Mandalorians renounced the old way to survive in a hostile galaxy. Mandalorian armor became a rare sight, with only a few bands of unrepentant mercs clinging to discredited clan traditions.
Few took these hard-bitten dead-enders seriously- particularly since they fought so viciously among themselves. Around 60 BBY, the True Mandalorians of Jaster Mereel, who sought to restore honor to the clans, fell out with Tor Vizsla's Death Watch- even as the New Mandalorians rejected both groups. After all but elimination the True Mandalorians at Galidraan in 44 BBY, the Death Watch sought to destroy Duchess Satine, the enigmatic New Mandalorian leader. Satine survived their attacks to become a passonate advocate for neutrality in the Clone Wars, but the Death Watch's time would come. The clone Alpha-02, also known as Spar, eventually won out over Satine's faction and dubbed himself Mandalore the Resurrector, a title indicating that the old traditions once more held sway.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:55 pm

so thats all we know "officially"
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:50 pm

So wait, according to that, Kalevala is just a planet in the Mandalore system? I thought they had tried to retcon the planet itself into being called that.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kalevala

I love how they release something that require retconning something set nicely into place, then retcon the retconning like it's nothing. >_>
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:12 pm

Mesh'la Runi wrote:
So wait, according to that, Kalevala is just a planet in the Mandalore system? I thought they had tried to retcon the planet itself into being called that.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kalevala

I love how they release something that require retconning something set nicely into place, then retcon the retconning like it's nothing. >_>

thats why you cant trust wiki. Someone read that Satine was from Kalevala and thought... so Mandalore is now called Kalevava... and changed it.

i got rid of the "sometimes called mandalore" part and posted the list in the discussion section.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:43 am

Thank you so much, DoseOrdo, for taking the time meticulously put together all the information!

I have no opinion just yet as I'm digesting it all and trying to put it together reasonably in my head, but I felt I needed to offer some gratitude for your efforts!!
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:04 pm

Ms.MaraJade wrote:
Thank you so much, DoseOrdo, for taking the time meticulously put together all the information!

I have no opinion just yet as I'm digesting it all and trying to put it together reasonably in my head, but I felt I needed to offer some gratitude for your efforts!!
thanks!
I want to scan it in but its a real nice quality book and I don't want to mess up the binding. Not sure how to get a clear scan without stretching it out. I type fast so it wasn't bad Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:20 am

DoseOrdo wrote:
The so-called New Mandalorians renounced the old way to survive in a hostile galaxy. Mandalorian armor became a rare sight, with only a few bands of unrepentant mercs clinging to discredited clan traditions.[/i]

I've been reading alot about the complaints about pacifism. Quoted is what we're told of that nature. "The old ways" could mean crusades and such, does not mean they would roll over in a fight, or even that they stopped training as they always did.

The word pacifist was only used to describe Duchess Satine. Of course we can conclude that her beliefs influenced her followers, but its unclear to the extent or reach of complete pacifism.

Also as that last line of the quote says, throughout the entire new Mandalorian period, there was always "true" Mandalorians holding on to traditions. This leaves room for Mandalores of old on small scale and breaths life back into stories like Durge murdering an un-named Mandalore.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:30 pm

DoseOrdo wrote:
DoseOrdo wrote:
The so-called New Mandalorians renounced the old way to survive in a hostile galaxy. Mandalorian armor became a rare sight, with only a few bands of unrepentant mercs clinging to discredited clan traditions.[/i]

I've been reading alot about the complaints about pacifism. Quoted is what we're told of that nature. "The old ways" could mean crusades and such, does not mean they would roll over in a fight, or even that they stopped training as they always did.

The word pacifist was only used to describe Duchess Satine. Of course we can conclude that her beliefs influenced her followers, but its unclear to the extent or reach of complete pacifism.

Also as that last line of the quote says, throughout the entire new Mandalorian period, there was always "true" Mandalorians holding on to traditions. This leaves room for Mandalores of old on small scale and breaths life back into stories like Durge murdering an un-named Mandalore.

That's a very interesting idea, Dose. I like it a lot; it gives us something salvageable out of all this retconning.

I agree with most of the posters on this thread, that Clone Wars is basically destroying things in this era, and that most of the retconning just complicates things further. I also agree that the two things are separate in my mind: The Clone Wars and non-Clone Wars. In my opinion, a children's show shouldn't and is not canon.

I will also miss a sequel to Imperial Commando, as the first book opened so many things to be ended in a second book, and I was looking forward to see those holes filled. But now we'll never get anything. I'm not blaming this on Ms. Traviss though, and am not angry at her, but at LucasArts for causing her to have to throw out all of her work. If I were in her position, I probably would have done the same, and I wish her better luck in other, more friendly universes she may write in.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:02 pm

This information has upped my spirits considerably ^^
Alas we do still have the loss of Travis but I suppose that makes way for other aspiring writers, no? Hopefully, these are writers inspired by Travis as well.

I just hope the live action series dosn't run mandos over the same way the cartoon is. As much as I hate what they're doing, I still can't deny the fact that for a cartoon its a remarkably good series.
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PostSubject: Re: Get your flowers out kids...   Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:20 pm

DoseOrdo wrote:

thanks!
I want to scan it in but its a real nice quality book and I don't want to mess up the binding. Not sure how to get a clear scan without stretching it out. I type fast so it wasn't bad Very Happy

well i did the same thing for CoM ( basically retyped all the info but I missed the bit about the mandalorian wars )

here's a pic to give you and idea of the page setup:

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Get your flowers out kids...
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