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Douglas Fett
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PostSubject: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:41 pm

Hey guys. I read the wiki on Fandalorians at wookiepedia, and something confused me:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fandalorians

Fandalorians are often criticized as being excessively zealous in defending Mandalorians. Critics portray the Fandalorian stance as an unjustified attempt to retcon Mandalorians as being more noble than they are portrayed in canon sources, and accuse the Fandalorian group of ignoring or attempting to contradict material that portrays negative elements of the Mandalorians. Fandalorians are also accused of reacting overaggressively to criticism and disdaining Jedi.

Self-identified Fandalorians take issue with many of these claims, pointing out that canon sources do portray Mandalorians in a positive manner; that the most objectionable Mandalorian behavior occurred thousands of years before the films; that only some Fandalorians disdain the Jedi;


A few things confuse/annoy me about this:

One of the reasons why I love the Mandalorians (both as Crusaders and later as mercs) is that they don't need to follow moral and ethical codes. They'll slaughter a whole city just to bring out the governor. That's what makes them unique - they're practical and efficient, which separates them from the Jedi because the latter are not as effective because they are curtailed by a code (of course that doesn't stop the fools from going to the Dark Side and being laughed at like a n00b). So what bothers me is that the Fandalorians mentioned here are listed as trying to retcon the Mandalorians to be "noble," which galls me to no end - they're ashamed of their own fandalorian status of loving a sometimes amoral people, and are ruining it for the rest of us. Anyone know about these particular fandalorians?
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Daennika
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:25 pm

Yeah, I do know about them but none with which I had argued about Mandalorians directly. It really is a problem of a "minority within the category" and there ain't much any of us can do about that...

Except maybe raise a more respectable name for Mando's in general thanks to this community Very Happy I'm not letting my hopes fly, though, cause I know we're just a bunch of Fandalorians to the "common Star Wars fan" out there (by common I mean those that don't claim to be anything yet claim to know every source of canon that ever existed). The fact is that you can't just have one type of fan, there will always be the hardcore and the less hardcore, and the newbie. Some hardcore fans hold out moderate opinions about things they're fond of and will recognize all the aspects of them, good and bad.

The newbie (or shallow) fans however, can be very aggressive about the stuff they just fell in love with. It's like your teenage daughter came home with a particularly sleazy type of gentleman and won't listen to your perspective at all. So what if the boy has badly tattooed arms, needle bruises and horrible hygiene? It's the love of her life, back off.

Not that Mandalorians are comparable to some homeless crackhead, and that's not my point. The key word in that wiki article is probably self-identified. While I admit there are many degrees of humor applied to self-identifying one's self as a Fandalorian, those that jump first on the title are the shallow fans. Or, those that use things they did not create to give themselves a personality/identity.

I will probably seem like a huge hypocrit for having said so.
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:36 pm

I don't like the article - it stinks of prejudice. Haven't seen too many self-identified Fandalorians who go around overzelously defending the Mandalorians in the fictional universe and hating Jedi, the only thing I've seen remotely similar to that description are the clone fans who believe that the Mandalorians are new into the EU with Karen Traviss and that they're most on the same level as the Cuy'val Dar and specifically Kal Skirata, more noble than most.
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Anecdote
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Wed May 06, 2009 8:14 pm

The biggest problem with this article is that it seems as biased as the people on TheForceNet Forums. Even the slightest mention of mandalorians sends them in a frenzy, and when the fans try to defend mandalorians, a shit storm brews up.

After the dust settles, the only people that get banned are the mando fans.
Hence why I don't... go there anymore.
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Kote
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Thu May 07, 2009 2:14 am

The article sure does look like a huge pile of crap. And by the way, why cannot one like both Mandalorians and Jedi at the same time? Same thing with the military history - when I say I'm interested in the German army of the IIWW, people start poking at me and cry "skinhead, nazi!". But I'm not! Moreover, I'm a patriot. I mean, what's wrong with being interested in the both sides of a conflict?!
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Thu May 07, 2009 3:18 am

Kote wrote:
The article sure does look like a huge pile of crap. And by the way, why cannot one like both Mandalorians and Jedi at the same time? Same thing with the military history - when I say I'm interested in the German army of the IIWW, people start poking at me and cry "skinhead, nazi!". But I'm not! Moreover, I'm a patriot. I mean, what's wrong with being interested in the both sides of a conflict?!

Exactly! I have yet to meet a single Mandohead who is not a hardboiled Star Wars fan - and Star Wars is predominantly about Jedi after all. Razz
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Kote
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Thu May 07, 2009 4:47 am

Gratulor's body wrote:
Exactly! I have yet to meet a single Mandohead who is not a hardboiled Star Wars fan - and Star Wars is predominantly about Jedi after all. Razz

Well, there are some Mandofans who developed from the Empire-lovers - they have always hated the Jedi, all right. But most of us primarily got hooked on the films, and there is not much of the Mandalorians at all, while all the Imps, sorry, look like total morons.
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Thu May 07, 2009 4:37 pm

I think it's more of a judgment thing, stemming from Karen Traviss' portrayal of Jedi in general. As you can probably tell from the RepCom series, her view on the Jedi can roughly be narrowed down to "Jedi are all hypocritical di'kute."

Understandably this gets the gung-ho Jedi followers all up in arms and outraged how-dare-she. It gets worse when other fans try to point out that the Jedi actually are arrogant hypocrites and in the decline towards the end of the Clone Wars, all stemming from the highest canon (movies/films).

It's like someone's insulting their collective parentage. With no real person to blame, they need to direct their rage somewhere. Where better than the Mandalorians, who are "totally bad always evil blah blah blah evil", and have been the enemy of the Jedi for several millennia? (Or, by connection, KT and all of her books because she seems to be one of the first EU authors to actually, directly, challenge the Jedi and their views with an ultimately negative conclusion?)

Not to mention that all these against-Mandos POVs are basically pigeonholing an entire society as evil based on one, singular, bounty hunter represented in the movies. (Or two, I guess)
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Kote
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Fri May 08, 2009 2:01 am

What can I say? There are always some fanatic idiots who want to hate someone and shout at someody, just to feel better. But they are not true fans. A true Jedi (for example) fan acknowledges that the Jedi are hypicytical all right, but he still loves them as they are. As a true Mandalorian fan won't say that the Mandos are the most honorable and noble people of the Galaxy, because they are not. They are what they are and they are not perfect knights without reproach, and I personally like them for that.

It's a pity all the official resources of all the fandoms are infested with these jingoistic jerks. I'm registered on HyperSpace, but I've never posted anything there - and now I am not going to.
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Daennika
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Fri May 08, 2009 2:25 am

Traviss seems to address a different type of reader, I think. Most Star Wars EU readers seek certain characters (I'm looking at you, New Jedi Order fans. And Dark Nest fans, and...) with a lot of drama. The story has to revolve around characters like that otherwise a 10 year old wouldn't be able to keep up.

RepCom has no canon characters, it's all OC's and since the average SW fan requires more effort to learn to like a character he/she doesn't know, you can imagine that a lot of detail will slip through the narrow vision of a mind that only reasons in "good or bad". What were they fed with lately? The Vong Wars?

Another thing about Traviss: if her Sci Fi Wess'har series had been popular she would be accused of showing only the negatives sides of humanity in comparison to aliens. Her perspective on journalism and the media is very cynical and she doesn't go by detours to show the ugliness in everything. Religion doesn't get spared either. I can't begin to imagine how would a christian react to her writing in the Wess'har books but there are ways to handle a controversial Traviss. You have to look at the characters and not what they represent.

If I was a lazy reader, a lot would have escaped my attention and I might not be here at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Fri May 08, 2009 6:36 pm

I've always loved Star Wars -- the concept of it all -- the mythology behind it and the mysteries that were not fully explained in the Original Trilogy.

When Episode I came out, I couldn't wait to see the Jedi at their peak. I drooled over a young Obi-Wan and the lightsaber battles. When Episode II came out, I still loved the Jedi. By Episode III, I practically cried during Order 66 when the younglings were slaughtered.

Then, I read Republic Commando...

I was completely fascinated by the Clones now and I understood both sides of the conflict, coming to terms with Order 66 in a new respect.

I still love the Jedi and the ideals they represented (have a Jedi costume that's one of my favorites). But, I also fell in love with the Mandalorian culture that Traviss created. I understood Bardan on a new level and thought what he did was a wonderful transformation. I LIKED that he could weave the idealistic beliefs of the Jedi into the Mandalorian ways and become a bit of both.

I must be one of those rare fans who loves both Jedi and Mandalorians. But, then again what do I know? I also think Han and Chewie are great as a duo. (Stupid Vong War...don't even get me started on the post-Return of the Jedi books...rarely any of them are good...okay, the Rogue and Wraith Squadron books were great.) But I digress.

I don't understand why these fans have to bash the fictional Mandalorian culture anyway. Star Wars (regardless of which part of it you like) is an escape from reality...a place to wander when the bills outweigh the paycheck and you have a bad day at work.

So, I'll continue to like my Jedi and I'll continue to like my Mandalorians. I'm not biased. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Tue May 12, 2009 5:16 am

Douglas Fett wrote:
A few things confuse/annoy me about this:

One of the reasons why I love the Mandalorians (both as Crusaders and later as mercs) is that they don't need to follow moral and ethical codes. They'll slaughter a whole city just to bring out the governor. That's what makes them unique - they're practical and efficient, which separates them from the Jedi because the latter are not as effective because they are curtailed by a code (of course that doesn't stop the fools from going to the Dark Side and being laughed at like a n00b). So what bothers me is that the Fandalorians mentioned here are listed as trying to retcon the Mandalorians to be "noble," which galls me to no end - they're ashamed of their own fandalorian status of loving a sometimes amoral people, and are ruining it for the rest of us. Anyone know about these particular fandalorians?


Well, let's take just the 'in cannon' material.

Episode V - B. Fett: Darth Vader the baddest mam-a-jamma around SPECIFICALLY has to tell him not to vaporize his prey, meaning he knows this guy can get the job done, but has to pull in the reigns. Not very noble, but Fett accepts the request as part of his contract, thus is honorable.

Fast Forward Cloud City pre-popciclized Han is about to be flash frozen, Fett's worried about another pay day that also requires the querry alive. We find out that Fett never planned on killing Solo in order to collect another bounty on him...he's worried about his bottom line, all business. We see that Fett knows what he's doing, and has skillfully obtained creds from both the Empire, and Jabba for one job.

Episod VI - Jabba's Palace: Fett is still hanging out at Jabba's after several months either because the Hutt knows Han's friends will come for him, or some other scary thing has the slug shaking. For whatever reason Fett is cooling his heels. Several of Han's friends show up and get captured, nothing exciting so we skip to the barge battle. There's some acrobatics, theres some limb lossage, but when Fett landed on the damaged skiff with Han and the wounded Wookie, he knew the biggest threat was the Whiney kid with the green glowbat. Han was blindish, Chewie was nursing a nasty blaster wound to his leg and couldn't support his own wieght, and that smooth criminal Lando was about to become Sarlacc Snacks. Plus Jedi already punked him by cutting his weapon in half, he got a little emotional and focussed on the biggest threat...and was blind sided by a lucky schmuck.


several years later and now and forever cannonized....
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Bastion
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Tue May 12, 2009 5:36 am

Ep. II - Coruscant: We meet Jango talking clandestinely with Zam about the failed attempt to kill Padme. He gives the changelling a means to kill her more subtely and when he is about to be implicated by a certain whiney jedi's forcable Force persuassion use, dispatches her/it quickly....reminds me of the old spy films but instead of Wessell taking her own life, Jango has to save the operation by sacrificing his partner.

skip ahead

Camino: We discover Jango has a son, and is the donor for the GAR (Grand Army of the Republic for those not sure). We discover that maybe the reason Jango killed his accomplice wasn't to prevent the enemy from learning secrets, but to protect his child. He also tells a nosey Jedi that he personally garunties the clones will do what they're made for, and he delivers fantastically. We get some insight into thier family values and again thier honor. Jango was paid to make cloned soldiers and does so.

more skipping

Geonosis: Jango meets up with Dooku, who is also working for the person who employed Jango, and is either awaiting payment or trying to figure out what he needs to do next or whatever, when the jedi attack...after the people that were trespassing on the Geo's land and factories get caught and sent to the arena. I personally agree with the old saying: Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again. So after being provoked with a light stick to the throat, Jango takes it personally and goes after the guy who chumped him, gets trampled and after he's good and beat up from rattling around his armor, is beheaded, while his kid gets to watch.


What to take away from it all: We know that both 'in cannon' instance of mandalorian activity show us duty in that they never wavered from, honor in that if a word was given it was delivered, family values mean more than comeraderie, and efficiency. In Jango's case, Mace was the largest threat, to neutralize that would have turned the tide. In Fett's case, Luke was the only active threat at the time.



So basically noble? Not really so much as pragmatic. They do what needs to be done, hold family dearest, and when knocked around inside thier buyiice they're susceptible to attack.
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Daennika
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Tue May 12, 2009 9:24 am

That's a good point, Bastion. Good work on backing up the hard facts for us too.

Besides, coming back to Douglas' original question: wiping out an entire city for one hit is highly disproportional when you think of all the ordnance and resources necessary to actually do it. It just doesn't make sense unless the idea originated from a particularly cruel and sadistic nutcase.

I don't believe cruelty is part of any strategic procedure unless we're talking about "intelligence" and this is a whole other debate.



.... Hey, let's talk about this really sensitive debate anyway! How do you think a Mandalorian would extract information from someone?

Now this is why you leave the interrogator alone with the interrogatee, it's simply unbearable. Whether violence is used or not, and there ain't any laws and civil code restraining these "warriors" from getting what they want from who they happen to have in custody.

Plot bunny here, writers. Hinty hint-hint.
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Tue May 12, 2009 11:13 am

Quote :
How do you think a Mandalorian would extract information from someone?


It depends on plenty of criteria.

-What resources are available?
-What kind of time limit he/she is under?
-Does it behoove him/her to keep the interrogated as an ally or does it matter?
-Does he/she need to keep the interrogated alive/dead?
-Is he/she under the influence of stress, emotion, other external factors?

It really just depends why you want the answers, not really the how.

Example 1:
I'm looking for someone for some reason or another, but it's not that urgent. (ie, if I don't find who I'm looking for, no big). The guy I'm asking doesn't want to tell me. I drop a credit chip. He suddenly feels more talkative, no one gets messy, no authorities alerted, I got the info I needed. If he's lied to me however, I'll find him later and he'll be made an example.

Example 2:

I'm looking for someone for some reason or another, it's urgent, but not that urgent (ie, secondary mission). The guy I'm asking doesn't want to tell me. I threaten to hurt him, and before he can think about it, I do. He suddenly feels more talkative, he gets a bit messy, some attention attracted, probably no authorities alerted, I got the info I needed. If he's lied to me however, I'll find him later and again he'll be made an example.

Example 3:

I'm looking for someone for some reason or another, it's urgent, time is running out (ie I know someone is going to be killed if I don't move). The guy I'm asking doesn't want to tell me. I hurt him bad enough that if he doesn't do anything about it, he'll die, then leave him to his own mess.

Two results come about.

One: He tells me what I want to know and hopes I get him medical help or,

Two: He is incredibly loyal to whoever I'm looking for and still refuses to talk. However, he's dying, he needs help, and the one person liable to help him, is the person he is being loyal to, he's going into shock and he's not thinking straight and goes straight to who I'm looking for. I follow his trail to him/her, kill them both.


So it really just depends on why you want the info, is it urgent? is it vital? can it be obtained by bribing, talking, threatening? Although torture is the obvious way to get info, there are other means to that end.
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Tue May 12, 2009 12:20 pm

Daennika wrote:
.... Hey, let's talk about this really sensitive debate anyway! How do you think a Mandalorian would extract information from someone?

Now this is why you leave the interrogator alone with the interrogatee, it's simply unbearable. Whether violence is used or not, and there ain't any laws and civil code restraining these "warriors" from getting what they want from who they happen to have in custody.

Plot bunny here, writers. Hinty hint-hint.

Just in sort of a reply to Daennika’s point. It’s all in relation to the bigger picture but it’s widely agreed by many military sources that torture is of no our little use because of the fact that when a person reaches/crosses there pain threshold they will tell there captors anything to make the pain stop so any info they get is questionable, which comes to
Sun Tzu’s the Art of War were he states to verify any information you get from three separate sources before you take it as accurate.

In or dirty little war the most successful method was to turn the captive into your own spy by blackmail, threats on your live or just plain old bribery.

On torture the worst one I heard of was the Japanese would impale you on bamboo shoots tie you down and leave you, with the bamboo growing up to an inch a day inside you.

Not very nice Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Tue May 12, 2009 12:44 pm

[quote="Jodo Kam"]
Daennika wrote:

On torture the worst one I heard of was the Japanese would impale you on bamboo shoots tie you down and leave you, with the bamboo growing up to an inch a day inside you.

Not very nice Shocked

Really? the worst I heard is the one (I can't remember what its called) where they hang you until your almost dead, cut you down, give you a few minutes to recover, then slice open your stomach, pull out your guts, and while they're still attached to you, chuck em in a fire and make you watch them burn...

yeowch.

And believe it or not, I heard about this when I was in 3rd grade...lol, from my mom.
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Jodo Kam
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Tue May 12, 2009 1:23 pm

Pheonix023 wrote:
Really? the worst I heard is the one (I can't remember what its called) where they hang you until your almost dead, cut you down, give you a few minutes to recover, then slice open your stomach, pull out your guts, and while they're still attached to you, chuck em in a fire and make you watch them burn...

yeowch.

No that would not be very nice at all, but that would be you dead.

Being kept alive whilst the bamboo (as hard as wood cut into a point) slowly growing up through you so in five days it has grown five inches piercing organs as it goes.
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Daennika
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Tue May 12, 2009 3:18 pm

Death certainly is not the intended result to obtain information and you don't want to make that person lose their mind from the pain either. There are recent studies on the actual effect that pain has on a subject, whether the information given is real at all...

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866

Buuuuuuut coming back to the topic, the type of interrogation used by Mando's should be specific to whoever's leading it. If I would have to write a "torture scene" where a Mandalorian is supposed to be the good guy showing his/her ugly side it would have to be either:
a. kinda drawn out and boring, a long conversation that eventually tricks the subjects into telling the information
b. a pre-arranged blackmail/setup
c. a "good cop, bad cop" thing to get on the subject's nerves




d. five minutes of Bardan Jusik staring motionless
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Kote
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Tue May 12, 2009 10:08 pm

Well, if you're really interested in the topic, then I'd recommend to have a look at this: KUBARK (pdf)

It's a CIA manual on coersive questioning, and as far as I remember, it's quite educational. At least, it was written by the professionals.

Uh, sorry, it's practically the same thing which is described in the previous link.


Last edited by Kote on Sat May 16, 2009 8:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Wed May 13, 2009 12:38 pm

Again Daennika its all depends on the plot you are planning on but a Mando in my mind would choose the most efficient and pragmatic way, a long drawn out interrogation with preplanned traps to trip the suspect up just wouldn’t be there style. And the good cop bad cop is a bit lame who has never heard of it.

Take the interrogation in triple zero with Vau it’s pretty much left unsaid but what I took from it was Vau said “tell me what you know and I’ll kill you quick if you don’t I’ll kill you very painfully and very slowing”.

One situation I have heard of and it’s pretty funny (I know you shouldn’t laugh but it is funny) after the usual run of the mill treatment not working a suspect was taken hooded onto a helicopter and it lifted off, the suspect being ruffed about in the back of the helicopter was aloud to have his hood slip of so he could see how high up he was so rehooded with the helo slowly lowering the questioning begins again if the right answer is not given the suspect is to be thrown out as the terror mounts the helicopters landing gear a foot of the ground even if the suspect has spilt his guts they throw him out to fall a few feet. So you can imagine the mental anguish the suspect is under so the next time he’s taken up again will it be a long aarrrrggghhhh or a short aarrrrggghhhh. Twisted Evil
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Kote
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Sat May 16, 2009 8:42 am

It sure is funny. Laughing As for laughing at such things being immoral - well, we here are fans of a violent, pragmatic and cruel people, and I don't think anyone expects us to be overly moral. Twisted Evil

According to my limited knowledge on interrogations, the scheme is usually like this: don't let the object sleep, apply lesser, but wearing pain, never stop asking questions. Or, if you choose to act on the spot, I mean, on the exact spot you caught your unlucky guy and if he's not really tough, you can try to scare him into speaking by shouting at him, threatening to kill him and so on (it works only if the person is in shock). It's a pity I dropped my knife-fighting lessons, the guy who taught me knew a lot about the actual procedures.
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Thu May 28, 2009 6:58 am

The article made me laugh a lot. Noble and 'hero'? What do they think we are, anyway? Jetii?


Quote :
As for laughing at such things being immoral - well, we here are fans of a violent, pragmatic and cruel people, and I don't think anyone expects us to be overly moral.

I nearly spit my drink reading the helicopter torture method. Don't feel guilty for laughing- funny is funny.

As for me, if I were trying to get information from a stubborn mark, I'd opt more for psychological torture, although actual harm would always be on the table. I'd also hint at them being released for being talkative, whether I had any intention to do so or not. He'd lie to save his own shebs, so why not lie to make him talk?

As far as morals go- scruples are nice, but don't let them handicap you.
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PostSubject: Re: Question I hope you guys might answer...   Today at 8:42 pm

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Question I hope you guys might answer...
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